I just saw an old episode. I don't know if y'all remember "Project High Sierra." Anyways I watched carefully to see what parts they removed, what parts they added etc. It seems like the kit probably adds close to 100 lbs on each end; front and rear.

I'm not surprised that the front end looked so heavy. One of the lower front crossmembers had to be braced, because as Stacey David mentioned one good whack and the the whole thing would be messed up. These bars for bracing probably added 20-35 lbs of extra weight. But, since factory IFS on 4x4's is funny I'm not too surprised.

The rear end I was even less impressed. They used one add-a-leaf and a 4 inch lift block to achieve their 6" lift. Because Pro Comp knows that this lift block will increase axle wrap, they added massive traction bars to the kit. Both bars together probably add easily 50 lbs or more.

What I don't understand is why would they send add-a-leafs, lift blocks and massive rear traction bars when they could have just sent new lift springs and possibly shackles? Is it so they have a place to mount their dual shocks? After all this Stacey mentioned that with these massive rear traction bars you will lose a lot of axle articulation but as he puts it "Hey it's not a rock crawler, so it won't matter anyways."

If it's not supposed to be a rock crawler, that would seem to suggest it was more intended for mud. But then the kit adds so much extra weight, it seems it might make deep mud noticeably more difficult too. You could add bigger tires to regain or surpass the orginal floation levels, but this also adds weight.

One thing I remember hearing before is that extra weight for most kinds of offroading increases the chances of breaking parts. That's one of the reasons I decided to type this post. So besides the increase in ride height, do these kits offer any kind of an improvement in offroad suspension handling over a stock 4x4? Does anyone offer lift kits without lift blocks?

I saw that show recently too! It's pretty much a bunny-trail truck, or a street queen. Probably best for trailer towing your real 4X4 to the mud & rocks. The mud demo they did on it at the end of the show was pretty lame! that just a muddy field he wheeled it on! If that's what he considers mudding, then I can take my 2wd S-10 DD out in that mud "bog", and hold the gas pedal to the floor the whole trip like he did with the Siera truck on the show! It was pretty much all momentum so it wouldn't get stuck on camera!  That was not one of my favorite episodes, but then it does beat the Banks diesel upgrade kit on a new factory truck show.... that just about every other truck-related show seems compelled to do lately !!

That other show "truck universe" is pretty much a street dielsel truck show! - pretty narrow "universe" in my opinion. They show a lot of radical lifted trucks on the cartoon intro's ...but I haven't seen one yet on that show! They should re-name that show "diesel universe" - I don't care squat for diesels. in case you didn't notice.

I've seen a lot of spring lift kits from a variety of suppliers. The block & add-a-leaf kits are for people trying to do a lift on the cheap, or for show queen, or street queen trucks, primarily. Why would you put a big lift on a truck and then install ladder bars to kill the axle articulation, if it was going to be taken in the mud ? Makes no sense to me! There's even idiots out there who install blocks-over-blocks, and front axle blocks!

Truck Universe? I've seen it too. All street trucks with hi-po diesel motors. What don't you like about diesels? Too heavy in the front end? Too expensive? Sound awfull? (lol) It does get tiring here about all the diesel upgrades though.

Block-over-blocks? Is that street legal anywhere? Sounds pretty scary.

So in your opinion redbeast, do you think "Project High Sierra" was any better for offroading before that lift kit? Was it a vague improvement over the stock 4x4? About the only thing that really bugged me was the rear lift. What was your impression of the front end lift?

You covered it all about Diesels. You could buy a small house for the cost of one for what ? Street racing ? I don't mind the sound, it's probably the only thing I do like about them.

I don't think blocks on blocks are legal anywhere, but you see them in shows in Fla all the time.

You also see a lot of local Tuner shows where some kid bought a welder, chopped the frame  ( with a jack-hammer, from the looks of some ) to lower it, and then did a weld job that I would not let ANYONE see, if I did that sort of work, ( unless I was trashed out of my mind while I was doing it ). Most look like fried eggs welded on steel and then painted with one thin coat of primer spray paint. Then they show up at tuner shows to show their cool work (hack-work) to all their tuner friends who say Cool !!!

In my opinion, if your'e going to make an off-road truck then do it! Otherwise why bother with all this work and effort to make a 'poser truck' that is mostly going to be used to haul the canoe strapped to the riduculously expensive and complex rag top cover over the bed. The front end lift looked like one of those Jeep bolt-on lifts that are more for show than substance. The only other pointless thing he didn't do to that truck is give it a 4-inch body lift.

I like the sound of gas V8's better but to me diesel usually sounds nice too. The extra weight on the front end not only would be harder in the mud, but I imagine it'd wear out many of the front end components faster too.

So redbeast what would you do if you needed a newer truck? Do any of these suggestions sound nice?

1. Buy a stock 4x4, forget the lift kit, swap in near-stock size tires with mud or a/t tread, manual t-case shifter (posi-lok?), locker(s) and gears?

                                        or

2. Buy a stock 4x4 and leave it alone; save your extra $$$ for a nice old 4x4, like your K5

                                        or

3. Forget the new 4x4's, save even more money and just buy a 2wd capable of trailering your real rig.

It's all personal preference and finances, but I'd go with door #3 in my case. I'd make my work and towing truck just that, except for slapping some decent 31X12.50's on it for traction, and save my money for 'my real truck' as you put it. That's what I did in my off-shore boating days. My original beast ( that the wife rolled over for me ), and the old battle scarred beast I got now, were the 'horses' for my big off-shore boat. I couldn't afford to keep it on the water, so I got the biggest boat that I could trailer, and shoe-horn in next to my house ( with a few scrapes on the hull to prove it ). I think I had about 3 inches clearance on each side to play with. 

I would maintain my trucks to get "the Bear" to the hunting grounds. The boat was where most of my green-backs went to those days - " a boat is a big hole in the water that you pour all your money into". Off-shore fishing is not a poor-mans sport, by any accounting!

The trucks were both in decent shape mechanically, but you could see the road underneath your feet from the rust holes in the floor of the cab. - A zinc plate from the hardware store on each side of the floor solved that, and if it rained on the way to the ramp & back we would have to sit on one cheek so as not to get wet from the holes in the roof of the cab. I finally had it all fiberglassed in ( we got tired of getting outta the truck looking like we'd peed our pants ) . There wasn't enough good metal left up there to weld a plate on to it. It weren't pretty, but we stayed dry. " paint it black & put it back ! " - I think Confucius said that once.

I'm not the type to blow a fools ransom on a new 4X4 truck that couldn't hold a candle to my beefed up '77 beast, for not even 1/4 of that new truck cost - for what ? That 'new car smell' ? After about a month it's not "new" anymore, and it depreciated about 3 to 4K as soon as you drove it off the new car lot!!  Not me brother !

If I ever wanted a 'new truck' I would rent one for a month until the feeling passed, and I would rag the hell out of it just to see what it could take. Not very much I suspect. - I'm sorry but I'm a realist.

So you mentioned "door #3" and said put on 31x12.5's on it for traction. Do wider tires help noticeably with traction where you are, or is it mostly just for flotation? (ie. vs. 31x10.5's or 9.5's) If you were looking for extra traction on a 2wd with these size tires you describe, would that mean looking for an all-terrain, mud or all-season (highway) tread?

What do you have on your '02 S-10? Have you thought of buying a different kind of tire for it?

So your original K5 had a steel top that rusted, and you covered that with fiberglass?

I also don't value a "new car smell." (lol)

Wider tires are very noticable on the road. The more 'meat' surface you have on the road the better the traction and grip. That's the first thing I did on my S-10 when I got it. I put the widest tires I could fit on it without rubbing too hard on the front. It still rubs some on a tight turn. I got rid of those crappy factory Tiger Paw 'pizza cutter' tires. They're very prone to hydroplaning too. I hydroplaned it the first week I had it when someone made a sudden stop in front of me. I took it on the shoulder of the road to avoid a collision. It's never done that since with the new tires. The tires are not expensive either - They're Firestone Firehawks. I really wanted the Daytons, but they didn't come in the height & width I wanted. I had to settle for the Firestones.

I get better response from handling on the highway too. I just hate the lack of power. The only other things I've done to it is a K&N cold air intake kit, and ceramic brake pads for much better stopping power than the factory pads. I don't get all that brake dust from the cheap factory pads either.

The top was all rusted out on my old K5, I'm not sure why, but it was shot when I bought it. I chose function over form, and had to really coax the frame shop / body shop guys into just laying a fiberglass mat over it and building it up a little. Most people don't notice the roof since the truck  is lifted, and not very visible painted a flat black. I had them texture the entire cab roof too, sort of like an undercoating look to it. It's still that way until I can get to that part of my modification / restoration work. I have to shop around at a bone yard for a 73-87 cab top at some point in the future. I've got too may Irons in the fire at this point.

Wider tires also help woith handling...

If i had to own a 2wd, I would at least make sure it had a decent posi in the rear...

New cars are nice cause you know you aren't buying someone elses problem, however, they sure as heck aren't worth the price...

Chevy IFS lift kits are worthless except for the fact that they allow you to fit larger tires, they do nothing for off roadability and just drop the stock stuff so they dont have to engineer anything, that being said I have 6" kit on one of my trucks, haha.

I would buy a lift kit with a block rear suspension simply because it is the cheapest option, knowing full well that I would just do a shackle fli and then run longer shackles to make up the difference.

Enough one liners for tonight...

I know that wider tires on the street usually mean more grip, but what about when not on a road? (ie. like in the sand shoulders you talked about earlier)

I guess what I'm asking is do you sacrifice traction in the sand to get more flotation with a wider tire? I figure there's probably a point where you once you have enough flotation from tire width, any gain in width and flotation makes the tires lose grip and/or bog down the motor.

What kind of tire are Firehawks? Is your tire taller and wider? What size? I've never heard of a 31x12.5 that wasn't a mud tire. (31x10.5's yes, there are plenty though) Did you notice any significant power or mileage loss when you switched to the newer bigger tires?

The wider the tire, the more flotation you get and more traction, sand isnt like mud where you can get a tall skinny tire and dig to the bottom. You do need the power to get that tire moving though. YOu can also make any tire wider by droping the pressure.  

What I meant is, I know there are conditions where a wider tire gives more grip, like dry pavement and possibly some other offroad situations. But I also know while onroad if it's wet, snowy or icy, I heard that a skinny tire often works better. (if the tread style is the same)

I see, I got lost in the translation. Skinny tires are better in snow/ice because you are getting more weight on less area therefore making you "stickier". Alos wider tires will tend to float up on snow and if there is a street or dirt under it, you can get better traction there, back to flotation i guess.  

I agree with you about the new car stuff. I'm not very big on the new hardware, in case you hadn't picked up on that yet.

More meat on the road = more control at the wheel - In dry, or wet conditions.

New cars are great until the dealer warranty expires. I can't justify the cost of a new car or truck at all ! I can build one hell of a monster for $60 - 80K, or I can be like every other guy on the road with my 'factory' optioned new truck.  I'm like old Dino, I gotta do it my way!

Time to seperate the boys from the Dawgs!

I'm done with one-liners now too.

The Firehawks are P225/70 R15's. It's an inexpensive tire. but so far the wear is not bad, and the response is really good. I had some wider ones put on initially at a local tire place. The guy assured me they wouldtnot rub. He even proved it to me with the truck on the lift - turning the wheels from one extreme to the other. Once I drove the truck home though, it rubbed like a *** in heat! even on the shallower turns. I took it back the next day and the guy changed them for the ones I got now without a charge. Maybe they might work on the S-10 4X4 which has a bit more height, but mine is a 2wd with factory height. It's a DD vehicle for me.

I don't do a whole lot of sand on either of my beasts, so I'll go with a 12.50 width, but I have no need for anything wider. There's also a bit of a power penalty with wider tires, especially on an underpowered truck. I don't have a power problem of course.

I've got Kelly Safari LT's on my work beast and Procomp X-Terrain 31X12.50's on my old war horse. It's weird, but according to the Procomp catalogs and every piece of litterature I could find on-line, the Procomp 33's dimensions are actually smaller than the ones sold as 31's. - I wish someone would explain that one to me!

I'm limited in height on the tires cause I've got to fit this beast in the garage. It just squeaks in there with the 4-inch lift on it.