I never suggested or implied that any of you are novice drivers.  Rather, I am seeking advice for a friend of mine who does not normally drive a car, but got his license, like most Americans, with minimal training, and education mostly in reading street signs rather than what to do when you misjudge the speed at which you can negotiate a curve safely, etc.  

Then heed my suggestion and have your friend attend training courses that that teach proper driving skills for extreme situations rather than purchase a vehicle filled with "band-aids" for those who lack basic skills in vehicle operation.

A novice driver at the helm of a $50,000 luxo-ute full of safety features that make the driver feel indestrucible is by far the most dangerous thing on the road.

ok. all the vehicles you have listed will never be able to drive over any tree, and i certanly would not try to go off the road to go around it. subarus dont come with winches. a jeep is probably the most well known off road vehicle of all time. that is what they were designed for. like others have stated, saftey is 95% driver and 5% vehicle. with excellent driving skills, a person could take a stock 4x4 further than a jacked up 4x4 driven by a novice. something else to keep in mind, you said your friend is going to be using this for mainly getting to the camping spot, why get all the gagets like abs, airbags, ect. which is mainly for in town driving? know one wants an airbag going off when they hit a mud hole to hard. the more parts, the more things to break or have go wrong. my recommendation is a nice jeep with a locker in the rear atleast for those tree climbing excursions he may have. i hope this was some help. phil.  

I have a question for you buddy.... what kind of camping is your "friend" going to be doing exactly? Because, for one, my idea of four wheeling into a campsite is pretty extreme.  When i have to four wheel into a campsite, it would have to be the frickin' rubicon almost. And because most cityfolk (and that is an assumption by the way you're describing the situation) that i know who camp, drive down a gravel road to a small town with a store and bathrooms and a pad of dirt to put a tent on.

And another thing, If this friend needs all of that crap on car to be safe, then he shouldn't be driving at all.  Just because you pass a test that displays your ability to turn on the windsheild wipers and back up in a straight line, doesn't give you the right to put peoples lives on the line.  

Again, if you think a subaru outback is 4WD then you need to get your head out of a place we shant speak of.  Those kind of AWD vehicles you speak of, were designed to go through snow better for people who dont leave pavement , not off road.  

In conclusion, you ask for these peoples help and you seem to disregard it just as easily as it came.  They know what they are talking about...so listen to them. 

I have to agree with MUDROCK on this one...in the situation you propose the problem with front wheel drive that the front tires are doing all the work; braking, steering, and traction.  Any basic highschool driver's ed class teaches to steer into the skid and if your novice driver friend can't figure that out than all the ABS traction stability control in the world won't help. 

A Jeep (SUV, truck, etc) is NOT A SPORTS CAR and will NEVER handle like one. Like Clint Eastwood said "A man's got to know his limitations"

Actually, you're wrong on a few counts.

1. He is seriously into hiking and camping.  His friends are generally not as serious as he is, so he does sometimes want to head for a relatively easy to reach spot that his friends won't have to do too much hiking.  That means unpaved paths that occasionally become obstructed.  A more capable off-roader would be more likely to get him and his friends closer to a better spot to camp than a regular car.

2. Actually, passing the test and refraining from breaking the laws of the land does in fact give you the right to drive a vehicle in the USA.  Strange, but true.

3. I came here to discuss off-roading in a 4-wheeler.  How that translated into giving you a reason to be rude to me, I don't know.

I have taken some good advice from this thread, but I still disagree with most of you on a few things.  I still believe that because most of the distance covered, and time spent in this vehicle will be on paved roads, and because the driver is a novice who will not take a driving course because he is already sufficiently licensed to do what he plans to do, and because, even if he were the best driver in the world, safety features are still important to protect the occupants of the vehicle from other drivers who run the gamut from drunk, high, or tired to young, undereducated, crazy or foolish, I still suggest that on-road safety is a primary concern when selecting a vehicle.

For #1... I'm sorry that was an unwise assumption for me to make, but you could have the most capable off road vehicle in the world and unless you can operate with efficiancy, it won't be of any help at all.

For #2...driving is not a right, it is a privelage.  My grandmother passed the test at 80 years old but should she have been able to drive... no and I know you think that may be a whole different subject but lack of skills is lack of skills.

For #3... I respect the fact that you are asking for assistance and it is a noble thing to help your friend and i didnt mean to sound rude but when i read the postings it seemed that you disregarded a few peoples valid comments.

Hope there are no hard feelings, i was wrong to judge.   

You stated your freind will not be taking any further driving courses, "the driver is a novice who will not take a driving course because he is already sufficiently licensed to do what he plans to do".

And then stated he need the safety features to protect himself from the "undereducated" among other things.

I said earlier in this thread "A novice driver at the helm of a $50,000 luxo-ute full of safety features that make the driver feel indestrucible is by far the most dangerous thing on the road."

Simple math makes it sound like you are following directions to create a disaster.

I understand the pursuit of the outdoors, and the problem of "getting there". There have been times I have got my 4x4 so stuck, to get 1km closer to a fishing hole than I could have got with a car. Spent all day getting unstuck, and not going fishing.

Keep that in mind, novice offroaders quite often over-estimate the capabilities of their vehicles. This why training and extraction equipment become a safety feature.  

I disagree that it's the most dangerous.  Someone drunk or high would be worse.

That said, I wish it was tougher to get a driver's license in the USA.  Unfortunately, it's easy, and there's nothing I'm going to do to change that.  I'm also not going to stress my friendships by trying to force people to take advanced driving courses.  Especially so in this case since this friend hardly ever drives.

Getting back on topic, I originally threw in the Subaru Outback as an extreme choice.  I like to make suggestions that may spark interest or change minds.  I didn't think it likely that it would in this case and I was right.

I picked the RAV4 because it did pretty well in an off-road comparison years ago, I think in Car & Driver.  It has most of the laundry list of safety features and is inexpensive.

I was especially interested in hearing what you all have to say about the Land Rover Freelander.  I know Jeeps are all required to be able to complete the Rubicon Trail and figured that Land Rover would want to keep a similar reputation, although I've heard a rumor that the Freelander is based on Ford's Escape.  I figured someone here would know, and I'm guessing since nobody seemed to like the idea, that the Freelander isn't as good off-road as Land Rover wishes you'd believe.

The Touareg was again a suggestion to probe my friends feelings on how much he wanted to spend.  It did win 4x4 of the year, and I really love the Touareg, despite its reliability gremlins, due to its extraordinary interior and its dotting every i, and crossing every t on my safety list.  I would leave the strange choice of air suspension OR On-Star to him and I'm sure he'd pick the suspension if he could afford it.  Why you can't have both, I have no idea, but you can't.

At this point, I think the XTerra will be my suggestion.  You've all made me realize that as a novice off-roader, he'd likely get himself in over his head and the ability to shift from 2wd to 4wd would help allow him to get himself stuck and then unstuck. I only wish it were front- rather than rear-wheel drive to begin with, but since price is a concern, this seems to be the best compromise of off-road ability and on-road safety to be had for that money.

I'm still very interested to hear any information about the other vehicles or suggestions on vehicles that haven't been mentioned.  Maybe some kind of pick-up truck?

I ask because my knowledge of vehicles tapers off drasticly as you move away from all-wheel drive as I mostly ignore non-AWD vehicles since I live where it snows.

be careful, even with the XTERRA because it, like most 4x4's, has a very high center of gravity, much higher than whatever vehicle your friend took the test in, unless it was also a 4x4.  Rollovers are easily the biggest danger in a high CG vehicle, especially with unexperienced drivers, but reasonable speeds/braking/steering will make a roll much more unlikely.  Regardless of the vehicle chosen, check out the esuvee.com (spelling?) website that they advertise on TV, as it gives info on safe high CG driving. 

with regards to trucks, it depends on what your going to be doing.  If you wouldn't want what you're hauling to touch upholstery in your house, why let it touch upholstery in your car?  if muddy mountain bikes, smelly fishing gear, or otherwise nasal-unfriendly objects are going to be hauled around then go with a truck.  Just make sure it has enough seating!! (more friends=more fun).  They do tend to have lower ground clearance than SUVs, but are more easily fitted with larger tires, and possibly a lift kit later on.

also, though the 4x4 use may be light, don't count out (and i recommend all of these) more dirt friendly ring and pinion gears (higher ratio=better in dirt, shoot for a ballpark of 4:1), a locking differential (power trax and ez lockers are cheap and easy to install), and either a winch, come-a-long, or highlift jack (w/ winching equipment).

I consider inexperienced equally as dangerous as drunk or high; the same lack of control, lack of attention, inattention and consideration to road hazards, and poor response time are all similar. 

If a p/up may fit the bill, a toyota tacoma is as reliable and as cabable as they get in stock form, plus a "laundry list of safety features". But all pick-ups are gonna be rwd.

While front wheel drive does provide more traction after you have already been braking, that quality is only makes a difference when you're pushing your vehicle to go very fast.

Here's some advice that we'd expect a novice to be possibly unaware of:

1. Before driving over nasty stuff, get out of your 4x4 to look at what you might be driving through and try to find the safest way across. If there's water covering the trail, walk though it if you can't see through it. Rubber boots work nicely. Even better if you have a friend willing to get out, stand maybe 50-100 feet in front and guide you though the tough stuff, like those guys signalling the big airliners.

2. Drive as slow as you can without getting stuck. (at least until you're familiar with that particular trail)

3. If your a novice, it's best to turn off the radio and ask everyone to be quiet.

4. For preventing skids, remember a tire can only deliver so much grip or friction. So to test the grip try driving at 5-10 mph and then brake suddenly. (on a flat and clear part of the trail) This will give the driver an idea of how much grip the tires have.

5. When you skid the best thing to do is to try to stop applying any force (or reduce the force) to the tires. Any steering will try to apply force to the tires as will braking and accelerating. If you decide to steer at all, let the wheel turn to where it's comfortable, which should be the path of least resistance.

6. If you need to brake in an emergency, step #4 comes in handy. With a mental note of what the tires can handle, try to apply the brakes with maybe 1/2 (or less if you can) the force it took to do your skidding stop.

7. You say your friend likes extreme camping. Be warned that ABS could kill you one particular situation; if your friend tries to climb up a hill, realises he can't climb it and want to back down, if the hill is slippery enough it could trigger the ABS sensors that a skid is happening and cause them to engage. Think of it. Your facing uphill on say a 30 degree angle. You cant make it so you use brakes and try to ease back down the mountain. (or hill) If you could lock your brakes you could slide slowly back down. Since ABS has a mind of it's own, you'll only have brakes half the time and you could very quickly be sliding backwards at more than 20 mph! (Since ABS won't let your 4x4 drag it's tires)

Have you ever slid down a hill as a pedestrian. Ever use your hands or feet dragging on the ground to slow yourself. Same idea.

8. No matter what kind of equipment you have, if your tires won't grip no amount of electronics or 4wd will help you. Having 4wd allows you to accelerate faster than a 2wd in slippery conditions but it doesn't allow you to corner or brake any faster. The best tires for a good street vehicle and a decent offroad vehicle are All Terrain type tires. All-Season tires (also known as highway tires) may come stock on new 4x4's but they're not good at doing any extreme camping. An all-terrain tire will be a bit noiser on the highway but not a lot. Also all-terrain tires can handle highway conditions nicely. If you're used to car tire ratings like "Z-rated" and "S" rated, most all-terrain tires are "Q" rated. A typical all season tire is rated up to 112 mph. A typical all-terrain tire is rated to 99 mph. Your not losing much in ultimate highway performance with all-terrains. I don't know about you or your friend but I don't usually drive faster than 75 mph anyway.

All all-terrain means is a style of tread design. (or shape of the tread) It does not mean a bigger, monster truck tire. (though you can buy bigger tires if you like) You can often buy all-terrain tires in the same size as the original equipment tires that came from the dealership on your 4x4.

Look under your 4x4 before you drive it offroad. You'll want to know not only how much ground clearance you have but where particular low spots are.

If your friend thinks he might need 4wd for a particular camping trip, it's a good idea for him to practise using it before he needs it. Don't engage 4wd on pavement. Part-time 4x4's deliver equal torque and equal amounts of speed to the front and the rear tires. When you turn the wheel in 4wd, the front tire will still want to spin at the same speed as the rear tires. On pavement you'll hear squealing tires (or popping noises if you start to break parts) Offroad your tires will slip a bit instead while turning. This is okay since this is when the 4wd was meant to be used and was engineered for.

By the way, I hope you and your friend have fun four-wheeling and being in the great outdoors!

By the way, I wouldn't consider crumple zones a legitimate safety feature while offroad. The only help in extreme force collisions like are a car crash that probably has a g-force 20 times (or more) the force of normal gravity. The only advantage I see it is if your drive 40 + mph into a boulder or 65 plus mph into a big tree. (You shouldn't be driving like that offroad anyways) More than likely a vehicle with crumple zones will irritate you because of their flimsiness, since most people don't do offroading faster than 20-25 mph.

If you were in an old-style vehicle, "built like a tank" (relative to today's crumple zone cars, like 50's cars) and you hit a big tree doing 20 mph you might get minor whiplash and a few light bruises, but you probably would have only one or two parts bent or broken, like a fender, a pushed in bumper, maybe a bent hood.

A car with crumple zones will likely have the whole front end smashed up. You'll stay somewhat comfortable as long as your crumpling front end doesn't crumple enough to enter the cabin. If it does you could have to amputate body parts like toes and/or feet, but at least you won't have whiplash, lol. (kidding)

I myself would take minor whiplash (like neck soreness for a day or two) anyday and $500 dollars of repairs to $2000 plus dollars of repairs, perhaps a total vehicular write-off but have no whiplash.

Thank you for the replies and I will pass on your advice for off-roading to my friend.

I'm very familiar with most vehicle safety features as I ran with the local ambulance club/fire company for 5 years.  The crumple zones will definitely be annoying off-road, but, aside from seatbelts, I think they're the most important safety feature once you're in a crash on-road.

An aquaintance of mine just the day before yesterday bought an '01 VW Passat and that evening was forced by another driver into a guard rail at high speed.  He has no injuries and even states that "I didn't even feel anything."  He also didn't immeditately understand why his car looked so very bad after the accident.  The answer is that the car sacrificed itself to protect him.  That's what crumple zones are all about.  The car wasn't totaled, but my guess is that while he'd have survived this particular accident in a Wrangler, he'd have been injured.  The Wrangler probably would have been less expensive to repair, but considering the medical bills that would have been involved, it's probably about even money.

I took a look at a Wrangler Rubicon.  As expected, they didn't have an ABS-equipped Wrangler on the lot.  The design seems poor to me.  Everything seems tacked on.  I can see that it's an awesome vehicle off-road, proably without peer.  Why not give it ABS with a switch to turn it off?  The apparent answer is that they didn't give it much thought at all just like they didn't think about integration of the interior and they didn't think about crash avoidance or mitigation.  Aren't all cars supposed to have side-impact protection?  Ya, right!  I guess the top of the roll bar counts?  Maybe if you're hit by an 18-wheeler that would be "side-impact protection," though in that case, it likely wouldn't matter as the occupants would likely die anyway.